Resin thinner is not really needed if you keep the ambient temperature as required, 20°C usually, at this temp the resin is very fluid  
Or if done outside, keep the resin container next to a heater before using it so it's still at an appropriate temperature
  




____________
"Someday, after we have mastered the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we will harness for God the energies of love and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire!" Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Thank you Gene,
I find it very useful, there is great deal of experience in the information from your post.
I didn't know about the existence of thinner monomer, actually I have the impression that more liquid resin yelds even bigger amount of production of orgonite, it happend after we wasted some 15 liters of resin because it had become in contact with a little of catalyzer and it went in a gel state (at least this is what the seller said).
They advised we get the resin non pre-accelerated and then employ a few drops of accelerator (the blue cobalt thing) and do mix it only at the time when using the resin at the same time and together with the catalyzer.
For the EPs I understand that the effect I sensed was only localized at a short distance from the EP, what the metal EP does is like a jet compared to a normal exhaust.
  

The inexpensive (yeah, figure $30+/gallon retail) amber resin thats available in the US is quite viscous.  No way it flows well at 20C.  Even at 100F its still rather thick and working with resin this hot causes issues because it noticeably limits pot life (maybe 10 minutes working time).

The thinner is usually cheaper than the resin which makes it economical and now you don't have to worry about heating anything.  Just thin it in a separate can and use it out of that one any time you want and you're good to go.  A gallon of thinner will thin 5-7 gallons of resin to where they flow well at any reasonable temperature and being less expensive it extends the coverage as the thinner also cures hard like the resin and does not evaporate.  Its reactive styrene plastic. There is already some of this stuff in resin as a viscosity modifier.  You're just adding a bit more to thin further.

The thinner will slightly compromise mechanical strength of the cured resin but we're still talking in the many thousands of PSI range where maybe even 100PSI would be plenty for resin for making orgonite.

Sure, if you can buy resin thin enough to suit your needs, fine.   Whats available at retail certainly in the US doesn't meet this criterion.  If buying by the drum perhaps you can strike a good deal but there aren't many orgonite tossers who can either afford to do this or even have a place to store and work with a drum of resin if they could.  I sure don't.  I wish I did though.

Like everything else, the thinner is a viable option and its use is based upon personal need.
  

Silvio, sure, you can get resin non-pre-catalyzed and add the cobalt (cobalt napthenate IIRC).  Without the cobalt, it would take days to weeks to cure to the point it would be useless to anyone.  Getting it this way you can tailor the resin to the speed of cure you want.  This isn't an option for most folks buying in gallons though.  You'd have to buy a drum to get it the way you say and thats just plain not possible for a lot of gifters.  It may or may not be a less expensive option depending on how your supplier prices things but if it is, go for it.  It gives you more control over cure time/gel time.

The normal resins have the cobalt added and you get what you get.  You can modify cure/gel time a bit by dropping the amount of hardener but NEVER go below 5 drops per gallon (5-15 drops is the recommended range with 10 being the norm).  My resin supplier simply says to use 1% of the resin as hardener though I've yet to figure out if thats by weight or volume (I think weight as not stating either is usually understood to be by weight but we're dealing with liquids here so I'm not sure - have to find out).

There is resin called "gelcoat".  Its thicker, almost gelatinous and usually colored though I recently found out you can buy clear too.  Its used as a top coat on fiberglass for a nice finish.  When you're looking at a fiberglass boat, you're looking at gelcoat.  This stuff wouldn't work well for orgonite unless you pre-mixed the metal into the resin and then plopped it into molds and even at that I wonder if it would settle properly.  Its designed to act like a gel so you can get a thick coat even on a vertical surface without it running or sagging.

My limited experience with thinner resin is that it allows the metal to pack more tightly together, requiring less resin to create a solid mass so in a way, you trade metal for resin if your metal is divided finely enough to where it can pack rather tightly together (which makes a more powerful device BTW but maybe only by 10-20%) and you use less resin BUT, its not like you're going to use half as much, maybe 10-20% less resin.  Here in the US, buying aluminum scrap (only way I've found it so far -all the big scrap producers are now in other countries, sigh), at 75 cents per pound, using 20-30% more metal to save maybe 1/2oz resin per TB is VERY economical and it gets you a more powerful device as I'd already mentioned.  This does mean you could actually make them a little smaller to save even more if you so choose.  I don't.

For my TB's, I'm using a full pound of aluminum shavings per dozen TB's. They're VERY powerful for their size.  I use less of the expensive resin which suits me just fine.

In orgonite, the resin is a matrix material though this matrix material does need to be organic so there is some effect it provides beyond just being "glue" where the real work is done by the metal with the crystal acting as an amplifier of sorts.  The way I believe it works is that the crystal accelerates the speed of motion of the orgone energy which creates a stronger "etheric vacuum" around the device which sucks in much more DOR and POR making the device more powerful.

Yup, with EP's the pipe acts to focus the orgone energy and seriously multiply the distance of travel (Don said many miles below the Earth).
  

Quote:

PVC expands/contracts as it warms/cools. That will open gaps between the pipe and the foil letting moisture get in. Bye bye foil. This is why you need a thick film of resin on both sides of the foil completely encapsulating it (thick as in perhaps 2-3mm if not a bit more on both sides) which is sure sounding like a funky custom mold which is now getting too complex and perhaps cost/time prohibitive given you'll only be able to make 1EP per mold every 2-3 hours (time it takes the resin to complete its initial cure).

Since I can't make a CB right now, I'll make a test. I'll buy a 6 foot, 1  inch diameter, PVC pipe, wrap it in foil and let it standing exposed to weather in my yard to see what happens.

I'm planning to glue the foil with resin to the pipe and them coat it with a thin layer of resin. I won't use a mould, i'll just let it flow over the foiled pipe many times until I think it's well coated.

By adjusting the amount of catalyst (Butanox for polyester resin) one can make it cure faster, realy fast  if you wish, since its a thin layer off resin so time won't be a major trouble. Warm weather also helps and I can harden it in less than 1 hour if I wish, even in the case of bigger pieces of orgonite. My resin suplier recomends 30 droplets of butanox catalyst for each 100ml of   cheap ortophtalic brown polyester resin. The resin, in my case, has the density of 1,1 gram for each mL. But since I always have excess of catalyst, and counting drops is boring, I just give it a squirt   and it hardens easily 1 liter of resin.

I'll make this trials with a Cloudbuster in mind, but perhaps I may try to adapt it to Earth Pipes with a small scale trial, and think off a good method to burying them without destroying them nor standing for too long in place. I think deploying the EPs after it rains is a good strategy here, as the rain softens the soil.

Since I'm small gifter, the quantity of EPs per run will never be more than I can put into my backpack so I'm not realy worried with mass production. And making the EPs lighter will help me carry more, since I do my work all by foot.

I also prefer the toilet paper tube orgonite in sign pipe method, since the pipe is already on gifting place and it also makes harder to recover the orgonite from the spot. For harder targets I conjoin 3 or more toilet paper tubes for a "pipe like HHG".

I deploy it using an extended crude claw I made by making paralel cuts in the end of a piece of PVC pipe, so it will form a sort of flexible claw. The plug is held in the claw by friction, wich is helped by the cardboard mould around the plug. By placing the plug just a little inside over the tip of the sign post, and twisting and shaking the extended claw a little, the plug falls inside the pipe. For the heavier "HHG grade" plugs, I use a similar bigger claw, made off a bleach bottle cut by half. I use a piece of sponge for holding the big plug in place by friction, inside the upside down half bottle. The claws are suspended facing down on a "U turn" at the end of about 2 meters of PVC pipe. The shaft is screwable and dived in three sections, so it can be disassembled and put into my backpack. I usualy only assemble it after I spoted a suitable place to deploy the plug, them I disassemble it and move along taking usualy about 1 minute to do it. It's a little embarasing on the begining but you start to notice that people don't realy care about what you're doing, unless they are a guard or it's in front of their house or business . Sunday morning make things pretty much easier also.
  

this will be my first post---thanks for having me, board!---i'll put up a proper intro soon

i've done a lot of experimenting with pvc pipe-sections in orgonite devices, including the substitution that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread; i was asked to post the following:

my experience with pvc ep's has been less-than-favorable; the metal
constituent of the pipe itself seems absolutely necessary to create
the properly-shaped field

a similar effect can be (i believe; in my experience, etc etc etc
disclaimers) achieved by attaching a wire to the embedded coil,
running it up the side & then wrapping down along the outside of the
tube, but its a long pain-in-the-ass process & then only to achieve
the same effect of the standard-issue pipe. the field seemed to be
displaced a little bit to the sides but otherwise its just trying to
accomplish the same thing that the standard device does already

------------------------------

sorry about taking two emails to get this to you----2 things i forgot
to mention:

1) the extra coil-wrapping down the sides of the plastic pipe appeared
to be an attempt to mimic the metal of the pipe. that was its whole
pupose, in the end

2) when one of them is found, the bombsquad goes NUTS, repeat
absolutely NUTS. you can imagine why. so if you're packing some around
in the hills you dont want to have to answer any questions because
they probably wont let you go for a loooooong looooooooong time.

---------

similarly, my experience has been that tape-wrapped devices made of layers (tinfoil & wax-paper, for instance) are too delicate for tactical usage
  

Gene,
it could be that measurement of resin is expressed in weight, instead of volume because with volume it would be affected by the variation of the temperature from the environment.
Over here the windows are made of alluminium, there many small workshops to go ask for free scraps. Depending on the workshop the metals shaving can be bigger or finer. Is worth visiting a few window makers. They should accept a gift of an HHG done with their shaving. I did that, and later also sold a piramid to the workshop owner (okay, only 10 euro pa!).
The resin we get is from a buttons manufacturer, the deal is 3euro litre, is quite fluid and is way better than the one from say a colour shop where 1 kilo will cost 12 to 18 euros is so viscous that yelds little results of maybe 7 orgonites, and it makes cracks.
Not all the buttons manufactures will be available to sell resin, is worth trying and the thinner as well, so it will reduce the costs so much!
  

For the resin thinner  i think it is already one of the elements of cheap resin that s why it is so thin and stinks a lot, much vapours. it is absolutely perfect to use for gifting as a money saver but i cannot offer this to people cause it stinks for a while lol

Sure the thinness of the resin plays a role in how much metal you can get but part of it i believe also has to do with the mixing process and the quality of the metal one has (thinner, medium,larger...).   if you are mixing manually large quantities in a bucket instead of directly in a mould it becomes harder the thicker the resin for obvious reasons but one of the resins i use is ¨medium¨ thickness and it takes a good amount of metal to my surprise although it takes more effort.  

For smaller quantities is ok, making more Kg´s one would have to explore a resin mixer. There are cheap attachments for power drillers and i bet with this, you could even get more metal mixed nicely in the resin.

fran

by the way, Gene is right. Don t be a fool and use a mask, it is not a nice feeling to get posioned by those gasses and your brain will thank you  
  




____________
www.orgonita.eu

Hi I buy the resin from Havelpol composite. It is a very good one and the price is nice too!
For example 50 Kg Havelpol 1 + delivery ca. 160€..and I can make almsot 450 Tbs.

http://www.havel-composites.com/sho...ins/0-list.html

Thay sent me also the Greetings for Xmas...I was a good customer. I have tried the clear one too and it is nice! Bit I use the cheaper one for any Orognite..after a while won´t stink any more
  




____________

Fran,

Here in the US, bargain basement resin is thick, not thin.  What Gare is using in Thailand (inexpensive stuff by the barrel) is also thick and he's now using the styrene monomer to thin it.  IIRC he also said the stuff he's getting in Canada when he chooses to make while there is also thick enough that he'd care to thin it with the styrene.

The other issue is that all this general purpose resin contains a thixotropic agent.  This is an additive that causes the resin in a film to not run off a vertical surface.  This also works against you.  Thinning resin so "laced" may be the only way to fix this issue.

Casting resins (which unfortunately are usually much more expensive) do not have the thixo agent added as they're meant to be poured and designed to flow like water to quickly fill the mold and exclude air.

Perhaps you have a good source for resin and are getting nice, thin stuff but that doesn't seem to be the norm by a long-shot.

Since there's already a reasonable amount of styrene monomer in resin when you buy it (viscosity modifier), adding 10-20% more doesn't really increase the stench that much.  I do not find the odor lingers any longer than it takes for the resin to cure.

Be aware that "fully cured" is NOT hours when its hard and coming out of the mold.  It can take days to reach a full cure.  Depends on the particular formulation but rest assured, the cheap stuff is no speed daemon in this regard.

If you don't know, though heat will accelerate the curing reaction you can hasten the final curing by exposing the pieces to strong light (sun during midday is great). MEKP is photochemically reactive and light helps it speed resin curing.

Resin that is exposed to air during curing (bottoms of HHG's and TB's for example) will not cure properly.  This is actually a feature as it helps any subsequent layers of resin stick to the prior one.  You get rid of this issue by adding about 2% of a product they refer to as "finishing wax".  Its a 10% solution of a low molecular weight paraffin dissolved in styrene monomer.

What now happens when the resin cures is that the resin kicks the paraffin out and it surfaces and covers the exposed resin, sealing out the air where the resin now cures hard and properly.  You usually need to remove this thin wax film by mechanical means (sanding or steel-wool usually).  For orgonite, its usually on the bottom.  If its a personal piece, just put a piece of felt there and forget about removing the film.  Its inert (its wax) and causes no issues.

No argument about the smell though.  Styrene monomer is much more potent than resin.  And for those who've never seen it, the stuff is water thin - just like any other solvent.  This is why a mere 10-20% will thin resin so well.

I prefer to mix my metal in with about 50-75% of the resin I know I'll need, plop the stuff into molds, tap to settle and then top off with a bit more resin to finish them.  It goes quickly as you now don't have to poke at stuff if your metal packs well (mine does) to make sure you don't get any trapped air bubbles.  Once all the metal is thoroughly wetted with resin, this is unlikely to happen.

And yeah, respirators will save your life.  You don't need to get more than a couple snoot-fulls of resin fumes before you start feeling bad and it doesn't clear nearly as fast as you got it.  Also, DO NOT work indoors even if its a garage or shed.  Leave a door or window open.  Respirators will keep the nasty odors out of your lungs BUT if those odors get thick enough to displace the air  in the room, you're going to die from asphyxiation. No resin fumes in your lungs along with not nearly enough oxygen is ALSO a killer! You need to vent the fumes out of the place and replace it with fresh air constantly.

As far as a type of respirator, go for a chemical/vapor/odor type (this will be a filter cartridge thats a hepa filter plus a charcoal cartridge) and a rating of P100 is the best meaning it removes 100% of all the offending odors/dusts. There are lesser quality ones that are only rated at P95 and maybe thats OK in a factory where they know to ventilate well but at least for me, I'd care for that last 5% of the resin fumes to NOT wind up within my body.  These aren't expensive.   I bought a

MSA Safety works respirator,  model number of 00817663

The manufacturers data said it was P100 class and IIRC, it didn't even cost me $30.  I actually bought it off a vendor on Amazon.com though these are available through many vendors both on the internet and in "brick and mortar" stores.  I had a friend who runs a large chemical/coatings toll manufacturing business take a look and he said this one is a really good one so I bought it.  I was not disappointed!

The cartridges will probably last anyone not making barrel after barrel of resin years and replacements are around $15/set.  This is a VERY worthwhile investment.  It could save your life not only when working with resin but also when working with solvents, bleach in confined spaces, etc.  It removes all of it.

I'm not trying to scare anyone away from trying to make ogonite.  Out in the open with a mild breeze you probably don't need a respirator (stand UPWIND!).  In an open garage, at least for me, I'm wearing one!

There are lots of products we use around the home that , if you don't heed warnings and pay attention to what you're doing, could be harmful or even fatal.  Resin is simply another of these so act accordingly.
  

Michele,

That is a great price for resin.  It comes out to around $16-18 US/gallon (depending on what the exchange rate for the Euro happens  to be on any given day).  I'd have to buy a 55 gallon drum (220Kg) of resin to get even close to that price!  Resin in the US is priced quite high compared to other countries.

Ale told me last year that he was getting drums of resin from Brazil and IIRC, it was costing him about $12/gallon by the drum.  Not here in the US for sure, sigh and prices are rising and  50Kg drums don't seem to be something available in the US (at least I haven't found any).  The norm seems to be 55 gal (220Kg) drums.

As far as clear resin, there are 2 standard ones available in the US - Silmar 249 and Silmar 41.  The 249 is a laminating resin used for mostly surfboard manufacture.  The 41 is a casting resin and its not designed for thin film applications (won't cure properly) but for pouring pendants and HHG's and other personal pieces, the 41 is more desirable.  They cost probably 30% more per gallon than the general purpose amber colored resin so using it for field orgonite is an expensive endeavor.
  

I see Gene.
 It just happens that for me locally everytime i ve gotten the very cheap resin has been the thinnest and with more styrene in it for sure. This resin i use for myself, for gifting.  It comes from boat makers/repair shops and i suppose they get a great price for the drums and probably want it as thin as possible cause they spend much of it so that s why i ve been getting thin cheap resin but I ve chosen to work with 2 other resins for offering others and although they are a bit more costly than that, it suits my purpose for this case.

 The point is this for sure, cheapest resin available is going to make you lots of pieces and if adding thinner is going to get you even more , it s all an advantage. Michelle has pointed to one really good source of resin in Europe.

As you say with the styrene vapours is nice to work in an open area and summer is nice to be able to work outside. In the wokshop i keep my windows and  door opened and the fan is always running, i learned the hard way in another place that was smaller and not so well ventilated, just got a little dizzy
  




____________
www.orgonita.eu

I like to try what suggested about putting orgonite inside metal poles.

I wanted to share this way to overcome the problem of getting the orgonite inside the metal pole.

It's done using a stick with a hook screwed at the extremity, the stick can be a telescopic one such as those used for painting walls, when the poles are very high. Otherwise 1 metre lenght is enough for the normal street sign.
Then with some masking tape or other tape, make a handle with the tape by applying one piece of tape that sticks on 2 opposite sides passing over the top, like a sort of handle. Then hook the orgonite to the stick, this will work as an extension of your arm in order to reach the top of metal pole. Once the orgonite is inserted in the hole at the top of the metal pole, just pull or twist a bit the stick to get the orgonite to unhook and free fall inside fully.
Since this may produce a little noise, there is a variation for the very silent gifter, substitute the hook with a screw eye ring, and use a string that need to pass inside both the handle on the orgonite and the ring on the top of the stick, place the orgonite on the hole, then the string can used to allow the descending of the orgonite, a bit a the time.  
  

silvio wrote: 

Since this may produce a little noise, there is a variation for the very silent gifter

There is another way I used most of the time, wait for a heavy rain time, the poles will be full of water and when you drop the orgonite it just makes 'plop' and no other sound while it's slowly going to the bottom inside the water And while it's raining, there's not many people outside, winter rain close to 0°C is the best, there you're sure to be alone and make no noise
i usually went around on a bike, because you can use it as a ladder, usually it's fine for poles up to 3m! No need for hooks, sticks or any modifications of the orgonites!
  




____________
"Someday, after we have mastered the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we will harness for God the energies of love and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire!" Pierre Teilhard de Chardin